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09/28/2011

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Adam

There's no double standard, obviously:

In 2011, the actual text of the Palestinians' request to the UN demanded the Western Wall, the Holy Basin in Jerusalem, non-Arab Neighborhoods in Jerusalem such as the Armenia quarter...

They're asking for more than just statehood. Obama and Rice asked them to use different text that didn't tramp on Jewish statehood and holy sites and they would vote for it. The Palestinians refused. That is why Obama is not voting FOR.

Adam

And the following point doesn't relate directly to Judis' poor arguments and Obama's good policy judgment...


Ackerman and Judis seem to have forgotten the FULL applications of their democratic beliefs.

Polls are showing Palestinian Arabs in East Jerusalem overwhelmingly don't want to be under the governance of a Palestinian state. Wouldn't it make sense then not to condone Israel or the PA's unilateral claims for Jerusalem at the United Nations?--if one believes in democracy, that is.

fuster

---''They wanted all of Palestine and even Jordan for a Jewish state; and some of them were willing to use terror and assassination to achieve their ends."---


Kind of a reach to try equating "were willing" with the actual use of terror. It sort of leaves the "were allowed" and the "widely supported" part.

fuster

---"Polls are showing Palestinian Arabs in East Jerusalem overwhelmingly don't want to be under the governance of a Palestinian state."-----


yeah, Adam polls also show the the Arabs approve of the Israeli policy that they be pushed out of Jerusalem and be denied equal treatment of the law or anything even approaching a equal share of government resources.

peddle harder.

Adam

Fuster, smugness and hack rhetoric is no substitute for an actual counter-argument. Automatically dismissing polls of Palestinians living in the city is not to your credit. We're talking about real people here.

In the interest of democracy, bargaining about the final status of neighborhoods of Jerusalem should be postponed until later, giving people a chance to choose their own citizenship (many Palestinian Arabs in Jerusalem are filing for Israeli citizenship now) and make their voices heard in referendum.

fuster

Adam, why don't you post that poll you're touting.

I'm gonna guess that the study is not gonna to show that the Arabs still residing in Jerusalem are saying that they really enjoy the israeli government.

Put your card on the table Adam and pierce my (not smugness but) skepticism.
Prove me wrong. It won't break my heart as my skepticism also extends to suspecting that they might not immediately be better off under new management.

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In the interest of democracy, bargaining about the final status of neighborhoods of Jerusalem should be postponed until later, giving people a chance to choose their own citizenship (many Palestinian Arabs in Jerusalem are filing for Israeli citizenship now) and make their voices heard in referendum..

Adam

Fuster it's not just one poll; you can look up the polls over time. And no, the polls were not held on a handful of your rhetoric... Don't ask for people to arrange data for you and respond with something that has nothing to do with the alleged facts at hand -- it's showing dialogue with you, at this point, is a waste of time.

http://www.google.ca/search?gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=poll+%22israeli+arabs%22+jerusalem

fuster

If asking you to provide the facts rather than alleging them means wasting your time, feel free not to engage in dialogue.

a poll that says

"only 30 percent chose Palestinian citizenship – as compared to 35 percent that chose Israeli citizenship. Another 35 percent either had no answer or declined to provide it."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/would-east-jerusalem-arabs-rather-be-citizens-of-israel-or-palestine-1.336758

isn't all that "overwhelming" in furnishing confirmation for "Palestinian Arabs in East Jerusalem overwhelmingly don't want to be under the governance of a Palestinian state"

it might reasonably be interpreted that they ain't happy (or secure enough to answer) now and don't expect to be happier any time soon.

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this is one more reason to postpone difficult, necessary decisions. The longer they wait, though, the greater the risks. The problem is not one of individual conscientious objectors.

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